Keris and Matt discuss anxiety, depression and mood health. They acknowledge the role of environment, relationships, financial security and having a daily purpose in resolving negative emotions and outline some coping mechanisms and basic strategies to address negative emotions.
Listen below or head to iTunes for the full episode.
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Our discussion includes –
- Spectrum of mental health issues
- Addressing the root cause of anxiety and depression
- Acknowledging factors that can have a negative impact on mental wellbeing
- Pressures suffered by men and women that contribute to anxiety
- Role of social media and technology in triggering guilt and destructive behaviours associated with anxiety
- Nutrition and supplements to support mental wellbeing
- Strategies and coping mechanisms to address negative thought patterns
Read the full transcript below:
Matt: Oi, oi, saveloy! It’s Fit Food Radio, episode 102. Of course, I’m here with Keris, as always. We are sat outside my Nan’s house in the lovely Stratford-upon-Avon in what has been another amazingly hot day in the UK.
Keris: It’s our first outdoor podcast, so if we get complaints about birds tweeting …
Matt: Dogs barking.
Keris: Dogs barking. It’s nice though.
Matt: Or old [inaudible 00:00:34] in the background.
Keris: You can hear them [inaudible 00:00:43].
Matt: You know what? I can’t believe the weather actually. In fact, it’s probably the first time I’ve ever come back from a holiday, and the temperature here when we landed has been hotter than where we just came from.
Keris: It’s a different kind of heat as well, because you’re trying to do stuff still. I know everyone’s moaning about it, but you’re trying to do things like clean your house, you’re trying to cook your dinner. I don’t know. It feels different to be on a holiday where it’s more geared up for outdoor life, whereas here-
Matt: You’re not cleaning your house.
Keris: Yeah, yeah.
Matt: Or making your dinner.
Keris: Or stuck indoors. Sometimes I get relief when it clouds over because I don’t feel like I’m missing out by staying inside and working then.
Matt: Some days, like when we were away, it was like a relief when it’s clouded over for a bit because you do feel like you need a little bit of a break. You don’t want to go outside, but you do need a bit of a break.
Keris: Yeah, yeah. Just go outside and have a coffee.
Matt: When you can find shade, which would be a more practical idea, rather than waiting for it to cloud over, but hey ho.
Keris: Hey ho.
Matt: Right. So guys, today, speaking of holidays, Keris and I were having a little chat whilst we were away about anxiety. More to the point, Keris’ anxiety or anxiety that she used to have. We just ended up having a good old chat about it, and we were like this would’ve been an amazing podcast. That’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to do a little podcast on it.
Keris: We are indeed.
Matt: We do feel that in our experience … We often say, Fitter Food, we are a lifestyle brand. It’s not just about nutrition. It’s not just about training. It’s also about mental health, emotional health, quite simply getting your head in the right place, so to speak. I think anxiety affects everybody in different ways. Some people have suffered with it in the past, maybe a little bit more chronically. Some people have had some very acute bouts of anxiety, panic attacks, things like that.
Matt: Something that we have noticed more and more recently is it seems to be a much more common issue than you might be led to believe. Well certainly, I would say anyway, I’ve come across more and more people that suffer from anxiety than I’ve noticed in the past. Maybe people speak about it a bit more.
Keris: I was going to say it’s the same for me as depression. I think we put kind of labels on these emotions, but really I just think they’re natural human reactions to fears, things that we can’t control, and things that we don’t understand or know about. Everybody suffers from it from a degree. It’s just about your ability to … We’ve been talking about this on our … In case you don’t know, we’ve been kind of touring the UK. We’ve done Scarborough, we’ve done [inaudible 00:03:29] … touring UK.
Matt: Just been on tour, you know.
Keris: Kind of a big deal. What I’ve been saying at these talks, mental health is a section that I talk about, and just saying that one of the most powerful things that we can do is start to train our brains, train our responses, or control our responses to these situations. They’re not going to go anywhere. When people say, “Oh, how do overcome depression? How do you overcome anxiety?” To a certain extent, you never will. Those feelings will all be there, but you get better at adapting your response or maybe just putting it in a certain compartment, not letting it rule you, your personality, your behaviours. Not letting it intimidate you or kind of change your intentions for the day really. I think everyone suffers from it, and you shouldn’t be scared to talk about it. I think it’s fundamental that you talk about it, whether again, it’s full-blown depression, where you don’t want to get out of bed, or maybe even darker than that, or if it’s just kind of nagging thoughts.
Keris: What I’ve tended to notice is that, I also mentioned this to you the other day, I have more male clients suffering from this at the moment than female clients. Just a kind of observation. I wonder is it because they’ve not had an outlet to talk about? I don’t know because maybe it’s something that men don’t feel able to express. This is my theory that I came up with in the car talking you was that because society has gotten more technology-based do … I’m trying not to appear like I’m stereotyping here, but do men feel like they’re-
Matt: You are.
Keris: I am, in a way, because just the type of people I’ve noticed that are affected by this a lot are people that have jobs that perhaps involve things like a certain skillset or manual labour or a certain kind of strength, almost like physical strength. Then technology taking that away, its almost like there isn’t the same role there, and that leads to a kind of level of confidence issues to insecurity financially to … I just wonder, is that one of the reasons? I’m not really sure. The other thing is, becoming technology based, there isn’t the same kind of roles there for people. I think it affects everyone, but I’ve just noticed-
Matt: I see what you’re getting at. I think you’re [inaudible 00:05:49] the execution of the example yet, but I see where you’re coming from.
Keris: No, I’m not, because if it’s just me and you talking, I’ll just come out and say it, whereas now I’m kind of aware of there are things that we shouldn’t say nowadays.
Matt: Can’t offend people.
Keris: Basically. Is it a loss of status in society, I suppose is what I’m trying to say. One thing I have noticed, is now I’m more prone to over-consumption of sugar, drink a lot of beer, all those things that men do typically more than women. Not necessarily the sugar thing, but I am seeing-
Matt: God, you’re so sexist. Look at you.
Keris: I am seeing a lot of-
Matt: All these stereotypes. We drink more. We eat more sugar.
Keris: You do.
Matt: We’re only good for manual stuff.
Keris: My theory, going back to why it’s still a bigger problem for men is because it doesn’t manifest in weight problem for men as quick as it does for women because you have more muscle mass maybe. I don’t know. Now this is going down the completely wrong route isn’t it, but there we go.
Matt: You overthink things.
Keris: No. I learn a lot from my client base. Look at my male and female client base. A lot of men come to me and say, “I didn’t gain weight till I got to like 40,” whereas a lot of women have been dieting since they were teenagers.
Keris: They always say the same things, like it’s a real problem in terms of they use sugar but to deal with anxiety, depression, and need something in the evening. They need something after dinner. These are statements I used to get a lot from women. Now I’m getting them all from men.
Matt: Do you know actually, that’s a really interesting point you’ve raised there because I think you’re bang on. I do think that men typically can get away with a lot more than women from a nutritional standpoint, because like you say, we are structurally bigger. We have higher testosterone levels, therefore, day-to-day, our need for energy is slightly greater.
Keris: Look at your capacity to put on muscle mass. It’s generally greater than a woman, and therefore you’re going to have a better metabolic rate generally.
Matt: Yeah, but also I think going on from what you were saying, I think for a lot of men, how often do you hear that phrase of, “When I was younger, I could eat what I wanted.”
Matt: It’s only that recently, all the sudden, it’s men that are in their late 30s, 40s, 50s, whatever, and all of the sudden, they’re seeing body fat appear in places that they never had before. All of the sudden, their pecks have turned to moobs and what not. Maybe that’s why we are seeing this surge in men later in life, if you will.
Keris: His BPA is in … I’m joking. BPA is in the water. No, I’m joking.
Matt: No, you were on point to mention the booze thing.
Keris: Going back to what we were going to talk about in terms of anxiety, I’m noticing that, because I get to work training students now as well, I get to oversee those cases. I’ve said this is to you, it’s helpful for me to stand back and say, “Gosh, I’m seeing a lot of …” Maybe it’s the only environment that men are able to talk about it, is in a consultation where someone asks them directly, “Are you stressed? What’s your concerns in life?” One of my things I have to really ascertain with clients is I’m not going to be able to necessarily make a big difference or make the progress that I want to if they’re under a serious amount of stress or have this constant thing that’s triggering anxiety in them if I don’t address that in some way. I’m not saying I’m going to the answer in terms of the counselling side, talking therapy, herb, acupuncture, or anything. Often, it’s something big, and you’d be the first to say us two running a business is definitely the bigger source of anxiety to us in terms of our life at the moment.
Matt: I a hundred percent agree. For sure. I just want to touch on something that you said earlier. There’s a word you said. You said status. That, for me, is like a big one.
Keris: In terms of a source of anxiety for you.
Matt: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I suppose I can talk about my own personal account, if you like, in the moment. Do you remember I said to you that study that showed people that had status, who were happy in their jobs, and were of a certain level, and had a certain amount of respect in the workplace, the effects on them, the positive effects on them were huge. This study was actually looking at these positive effects in that respect, actually almost reducing the impact, the negative effects of obesity have on them. These were obese men they were looking at, but men that claimed they had job satisfaction, they were in a high position, they had status, they had respect. I thought that was really, really interesting because we often talk about … When we talk about clients who maybe haven’t got job satisfaction, they don’t feel a sense of self worth, they don’t feel they have status, they don’t feel they’re respected. Essentially they just do not enjoy what they do day to day. We always say, you think of how much time you spend working, and if you’re not happy, you’re essentially saying I’m willing to not be happy for a big chunk of my life.
Matt: Yeah you can go home to your lovely family, and you can leave it all behind. Can you? Some can, some can’t. The reality is, it shouldn’t be the case. I’m not saying everyone is going to find their dream job and be happy every single minute they’re at work, but it certainly counts for something. Equally, I suppose, I’ve never flipped it. I’ve never flipped it and thought actually what effects could enjoying your job day to day have on your health. In this instance, we’re looking at it almost like being able to counteract the negative effects of the obesity.
Matt: We’re always looking if you don’t like your job [inaudible 00:12:05] actually flip it, but if you do like your job-
Keris: There are studies on this where they’ve noticed that people are-
Matt: I was making sense then?
Keris: I’ll tell you, there are studies where they’ve looked at people who have-
Matt: No you didn’t, but anyway. Moving on.
Keris: As well as status, we’ve talked about a sense of purpose, a reason to get out of bed, your value. It’s not just at work by the way. This could be by your community. This could be by the people that you … it could be your family, it could be the street you live on, it could be the village you live in because you do a lot for that village. If you think back 50 years ago, community was so much stronger than it is now because of again, technology. There are studies looking at people who perhaps don’t have a great diet and don’t exercise, but because they’ve got this sense of purpose and they’re valued and status in their community, they have better health markers than those that don’t. There’s countless studies looking at this. Small groups, menopausal women, various different socioeconomic groups as well. You’re absolutely right.
Keris: Sometimes I think it’s important to kind of look at, do you really need to start there on your health journey? I think again, we can start to label ourselves as suffering from depression, suffering from anxiety, but what it actually is is the environment itself, that we’ve found ourselves in, as well that combination of … These kind of symptoms are very complicated in that they’re kind of a mixture of everything that you’ve learned through being a child, teenager, young adult, in terms of how to respond to a situation. There’s some learned behaviours there. You’ve looked at parents. Perhaps maybe you’ve been exposed to some kind of traumas as a kid. We’ve talked about adverse childhood experiences.
Keris: Then you’ve got a micro-environment of you, your life, what you’re doing, and the relationships in it, then that kind of bigger picture of where are you going? What’s your sense of purpose? What’s your reason for being? Where are you going in life? All those things, if they don’t fit together … You know what most people do? You know what women do? We are so guilty of this. Women keep really busy rather than address their situation. Women often go off and start doing things like dieting and going to the gym, and make that a full-time role, because that’s a lot easier than addressing some bigger, bigger things in life, which might be …
Keris: Again, this is what we’ve talked about when we’ve done these discussions on mental health. I’ve talked about marriage, relationships with your parents, relationships with your kids. Rather than address those, it’s a lot easier to just be really, really busy. Just create a massive to-do list that’s impossible to fulfil, and go and maybe sort everyone else out rather than sort out yourself.
Matt: Which is quite funny because speaking of a massive to-do list, [inaudible 00:14:50] my Nan right now. Sometimes, if I … “Oh, Nan, we’re up here. We’re coming to see you.” You know, a little surprise. Rarely do you get the reaction that you want, which is, “Oh, lovely. It’d be amazing to see you.” You get, “Oh, well you know, I’ve got so much to do.” I’m like, “Well, what’ve you got to do, Nan?”
Matt: “Well, you know, I’ve gotta put the washing-up away. I’ve gotta change the bedsheets. I’ve gotta run the hoover around.” I’m like, “Well, nothing essential then.” Nothing that actually really, really, really needs doing. She’ll always just reel off these lists.
Keris: Things to do.
Matt: Things to do, things to do. You can tell she’s almost … You can even just hear her thinking of other things. “What else can I add to this list?”
Keris: Keep busy. Keep busy. Yeah.
Matt: What I was going to say was, coming back to what you said earlier about … we were talking about men specifically. I suppose this now is coming from my own personal experience, but also from time spent on social media. Whenever I’ve posted on Facebook and whatever about things to do with this and going by the comments, the interaction I’ve had with such posts or seeing other people’s posts about similar things is that I think that as men we’re very good at putting a lot of pressure on ourselves to be men, to do manly things. To do manly things. To do the things that we believe men should do. I think a lot of anxiety, fear or self-doubt can come from that. When you feel like maybe you’re not quite meeting the standards that you think you should be living by.
Matt: We’ve had this conversation as a couple who run a business together. I’ve often spoke about how I feel a responsibility as the man. I’m all for equal rights. Don’t get it twisted. We are equal in this relationship, but as a man, I put this pressure on myself. I feel that I should provide for you. I should provide security for you. Of course that’s not me putting you down in any way, saying that you need me to do those things, because you don’t. You’re an independent woman, girl. I know that. I think as a bloke, I put that on me. I should make sure that Keris never has anything to worry about. The roof over our head, finances, food on the table, fixing the broken washing machine, whatever. I kid of feel like that’s my responsibility to provide that environment for you.
Matt: If it feels like that’s not how things are, it’s almost like I take full responsibility for that. I know that’s a pressure I’ve put on myself. You’ve never ever made me feel that way.
Keris: It’d be interesting if you ran the business with another guy, would you feel the same or would you be more like … This is interesting as well. As a couple running a business, you never tell me that I’m not pulling my weight, but occasionally I’ve said it to you.
Matt: Occasionally? You’re cracking that whip on a daily basis.
Keris: Then across the board, women are more, I think … well, anyway. No, I can’t say that.
Matt: Oh, really though? Just going to have a barney on the pub car. Can you imagine?
Keris: That would be interesting. If you worked … Anyway, this is again kind of …
Matt: Go on, go on.
Keris: We’re going to talk about anxiety more, but if you work with a guy whether you would actually say like come on, pull your weight type thing. In my defence, in your defence, whatever. If anything, I’m more of a kind of workaholic. I need to tell myself to stop working so hard. It’s counterproductive half the time. I end up getting overwhelmed, tired, and throwing toys out of the pram. If anything I should work less. I just wondered if that was the case. This is what I think I’m seeing generally in terms of … Technology is just changing human behaviour so much. Not only are you exposed to these ideals and these things that your peers … You know what everyone’s doing all the time. Rather than be inspired, which we do try and say to everyone, “Be inspired,” you just start to feel inadequate.
Keris: You can’t help it. It’s almost natural. The day you decide to kick back and sit outside, somebody on Instagram has basically said, “I’ve done a 90 minute training session.
Matt: Actually I’m outside doing nothing.
Keris: I wrote a book. For God’s sake. Then, you instantly feel guilty.
Matt: Damn it.
Keris: I think guilt is a big factor. We’ve always talked about guilt from a food perspective. Guilt’s a massive factor from a “I should be doing,” perspective. Guilt drives everything from anxiety, to destructive behaviours. Guilt, funnily enough will drive you to go and do something that you know you shouldn’t do, and it will make you feel worse, but you go and do it anyway.
Matt: Guilt’s a funny thing, isn’t it?
Keris: Down a bottle of wine. Smoke a cigarette.
Matt: Isn’t it ironic how guilt works in those ways. Like you say, when we were on holiday, it’s a classic example in terms of feeling guilty for not working. We always feel guilty for having time off. We run our own company. There’s no one making us feel guilty for having time off other than us. We put that on ourselves. That is just how it is right now. We always say it takes a few days or so for us to settle into a holiday, actually get into holiday mode, and be able to disconnect a little bit more. Equally, like Keris just said, using that example of social media. You finally start get your head around it. Like you know what, “We deserve this holiday.” We did deserve a break. Everyone deserves a break.
Matt: Then you might see a post, like you say, from someone like Gary Vaynerchuck, someone’s who’s know for like the hustle, hustle, hustle, keep on grinding type thing. Then he does a post and you do feel a bit …
Matt: … thing. And then, mate does a post. And you do feel a bit, “Oh. Christ.” Right? We’re not quite where we want to be yet. Should we be doing this? We should have like, blah blah blah. But the ironic bit comes in where it’s like, “Yeah. But I don’t want to.” I want to sit here and do nothing. I’m on holiday. So it’s almost like you feel guilty. But at the same time …
Keris: You don’t act on it.
Matt: You’re not doing anything about it, ’cause you don’t really want to. But it is still managed to make you feel guilty. Same with food. You have a little binge. You’ve been eating really well. You’ve been training hard. Whatever. You have a little binge. Whatever a binge is, entirely up to you. Think of a binge, any binge.
Keris: Pick a binge.
Matt: Even though you feel guilty about it, you don’t just go, “Oh, actually, I feel terrible for doing that. I shouldn’t have done that. Oh, nevermind. Gonna get maybe next meal is good and everything’s gonna be hunky-dory.” You just carry on doing things like that that made you feel guilty.
Keris: Yeah, yeah. One after the other.
Matt: And continue.
Keris: Try to make yourself feel better, and make yourself feel worse.
Matt: Yeah, exactly. So that’s what I’m saying is, it’s ironic. It’s like, yeah, you feel guilty. But not really doing anything about it.
Matt: But yeah. But what I was gonna say was, it’s a big thing that I noticed whenever I did do these posts was a lot of guys completely related to me. And these were guys, as well, with children. And I think that just would take it to a whole new level. I worry enough about just having you and Hamish.
Keris: And I’m same.
Matt: Let alone if there was a little person involved. And, again, I think men, they just decide, for whatever reason, to take this responsibility on. And I think it probably just goes back to cave man whatever. The man is the provider.
Keris: The breadwinner.
Matt: The man is the protector. The man makes sure that everyone is safe and is okay. And he’s there to fight battles and whatever it may be. I think it’s almost a primal thing that we’ve got, that, obviously, in this day and age, you can’t express that primal feeling in the same way. ‘Cause obviously we’re not going around with clubs and just fighting other men for women’s affections. Men still do it.
Keris: It’s interesting.
Matt: Most Saturday nights.
Keris: You are also seeing the opposite in terms of if I have individuals who are very financially successful, almost don’t even need to think about money, what they can then often end up doing is leading these lavish lifestyles where there’s whatever, drink, that kind of thing, and end up with health problems as a result of that. And even though finances isn’t a worry for them, they suffer from anxiety because there’s almost like, again, a lack of purpose or something?
Keris: And we’ve talked about this. When we very first met, we talked about what your goals in life, career and business and everything. And I said, “I just don’t want to have to think about money.” That was my goal: never think about it. I didn’t want a lot of money. I just didn’t want to have to think about it, so that I could focus on doing what I wanted to do, which turned out I wanted to help people. And I see some clients now who are in that position, but because maybe they haven’t got that, again, that status, that purpose, they suffer from anxiety. But it’s a very different driver. As I’ve said, it’s a really … To me, it’s a very rational reaction.
Keris: But we, again, in the media, the media likes to put labels on everything. So I’ve seem lots of headlines about social media causes depression, social media causes anxiety, we now have an epidemic of depression in the UK. And it’s like, well … The purpose of this podcast, by the way, is to give you guys some starting points, some low-hanging fruits that you can get cracking with when it comes to mental health and building a stronger mindset.
Matt: And, of course, we will get to some helpful tips to, what we think will help you. But I suppose we just wanted to, I guess, let it be known that not everything is … Don’t assume that everything’s hunky-dory for everybody else, I guess. You spoke about clients of yours that have got no financial worries, which I think a lot of people’s anxiety does stem from financial worries.
Matt: Not having enough money, not being able to pay the bills, essentially provide for their family, whatever it may be. But then, equally, that doesn’t necessarily mean that just because someone doesn’t have any financial worries, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re happy. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re okay. It doesn’t mean that they haven’t got problems of their own. And I thought it was very interesting in terms of how people’s minds work, when … You know when Michael McIntyre got robbed, didn’t he?
Matt: And it was all like, “Oh, he was in his Range Rover Sport, and they took his Rolex, and he earned this many millions last year.” And then you could see the comments on social media like, “Oh, well, like you can’t afford to just buy another one,” or whatever. And it’s almost saying because you’ve got a tonne of money, what are you worrying about? You can just buy another one. As if to say, when you’re rich, getting robbed is absolutely fine. It’s not gonna cause you any stress or fear or anxiety. And I just think you see these things being said quite a lot when there’s people involved that have got some bunts.
Keris: I knew you were gonna put that in.
Matt: Do you see what I mean, though?
Keris: Yeah, yeah.
Matt: But also, I suppose, we wanted to just share our message, to say that we do understand why people feel a certain way. We do understand why people feel forms of anxiety. And we also understand that people have different triggers as to why they might feel a bit more anxious, et cetera. And it’s like Carys always says. With me, she always noticed my anxiety levels go up first of the month.
Matt: ‘Cause that’s when we pay our team. That’s when, generally, most bills are set up to go out. And when you run your own business, these things matter a lot.
Keris: Yeah. No, no, don’t … You can just see your patience completely changes. Your mood changes. Your motivation changes. I can … And I’m like, “What’s wrong with that?” And then I’m like, “Okay, is it?” Look, yeah.
Matt: Always first of the month, yeah.
Keris: Okay, right, now I understand it.
Matt: All makes sense now. But, to be honest, I think what a lot of that comes from is it is an element of fear. It is an element of fear of not being able to provide for you, which I’ve already established. But also, now that we have a team, it’s like being able to provide for others, because it’s also their livelihood at stake, as well. And they’ve got bills to pay and families to support, et cetera, et cetera. It’s an element of fear of failing to be able to do that and letting people down as a business owner.
Keris: I think. Yeah. And I think a statement you’ve said a couple of times is, “I’m not cut out for this. I’m not cut out for this.” You’ve really questioned yourself. I think that fear leads to this …
Matt: What’s “this?” What do you think the “this” is when I say, “I’m not cut out for this?”
Keris: Well, I always think that it’s running a business.
Keris: Being a … ‘Cause when you were a personal trainer, it was pretty straightforward, in that you went into a gym. You were one of the fittest guys in the gym. Not just … I don’t mean in terms of …
Matt: By …
Keris: You walked the walk. You trained hard. People saw you training. People saw your physique and said, “I want to train with you.” You could have worked from six in the morning ’til nine o’clock at night. And earned a really good living out of that but we both decided that we wanted to write books and help more people than that, not just do that kind of … And you’ve even said, when you’re 60, you ain’t gonna look like you look, and so there’s kind of a time limit to you being able to do that, to earn that living anyway. But …
Matt: There’s a shelf life to this online plan malarkey.
Keris: Well, I think everything just got more complicated. So, as well as the responsibility and you’ve just talked about the fear, it’s … As we’ve just talked about, it’s not about … You can work. It’s not about just working hard anymore, is it? And I’ve said the same thing to you. I just used to think if you worked hard, you’d be successful. But it’s not like that now when you’re online. It’s very different. And there is that loss of control and that fear that you can work as hard as you like. It doesn’t mean that you’re gonna succeed.
Matt: That’s where the saying comes from, doesn’t it? Work smarter, not harder. Yeah. It was a lot easier for me, in a sense, when it was just trade my time and expertise for money. And I suppose, as personal trainer, once I was more established, I had a greater element of, I suppose, consistency, to my routine, my income. And going back to what we spoke about at the beginning, I suppose ’cause I’d been at the gym for quite some time, I had a big client base. I was pretty well liked, I would have said. So it was definitely an element, I suppose, of status, of being respected, being liked, all those things …
Keris: Valued, yeah.
Matt: That we mentioned earlier. Whereas, obviously in the online space, and what we do now, I could …
Keris: We even get trolled, which is just …
Matt: Oh, yeah. That’s when you know you’ve made it. When you get trolled, you know you’ve made it.
Keris: Can you believe that I’m talking to you guys just now? Matt actually gets trolled. That’s ridiculous. I’ve never met anyone who looks so handsome in all my life, and you get …
Matt: You’re biassed.
Keris: If you get trolled, God help the rest of us.
Matt: But, come at me, trolls. I don’t mind. But I think in the online, it’s like there’s more competition. There’s less consistency from a business perspective. ‘Cause one month could be very different to another month. There’s also less structure, which, to be honest with you, that’s our doing. That’s our fault. We could structure our time better. But it’s bit different when you’re almost left to your own devices, really. You’ve got a massive to-do list. How you structure your time and how you prioritise things.
Keris: And I think one of the sad things is, like we’ve just been saying, you could be really great at what you do, but it doesn’t guarantee success anymore because technology has changed marketing and media. And if you think about, if you’re out there and you’re running an amazing little shop …
Matt: [crosstalk 00:31:57] guarantee success.
Keris: No, it doesn’t. But if you’re out there running an amazing little shop, it’s really hard to compete with Amazon, do you know what I mean? So everything feels a bit harder as technology really takes off. It’s a bit like the food industry. Certain big food industry dominates. Big pharma dominates. And the same with technology, isn’t it? The big guns dominate. So there’s an element where you don’t really control … Think about Facebook, Instagram. They control a lot of what people see.
Matt: Unless you pay.
Keris: Unless you pay a lot of money. Yeah, yeah. But I think, just going back to what people can do. You have an amazing quote that you were gonna share, in terms of …
Matt: Well, like I say …
Keris: It’s quite powerful.
Matt: Everything, a lot of the stuff we’ve spoken about can come back to fear. Fear comes in many shapes and forms, so to speak. And I saw a really cool Nelson Mandela quote yesterday, which says, “I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.”
Matt: And I thought what an amazing quote. Because fear will always be there. And I truly believe that anxiety and worry and stress, it will always be there. You will never be able to find a place within you to where it doesn’t exist. And it’s like we always say to people when we talk about health, fat loss, nutrition, lifestyle. All these barriers, all these obstacles that throw you off track, they’re always gonna be there. You’re not gonna be able to just sail through life and not have them. And I’m not trying to get all like I’m a life coach Matt over here. But the reality is, they’re always gonna be there. And what decides the outcome is how you face them, how you face these barriers, these obstacles, these fears, et cetera. And as Nelson Mandela himself says, how you conquer it.
Keris: I’ve got a little success story for you here.
Matt: Oh, I like success story.
Keris: Okay, I think, in some ways, one of the reasons that Fit Food exists, really, is because as a teenager, I had a really rough time with anxiety. And looking back, I didn’t know it at the time, but I was starting to suffer from panic attacks.
Keris: But it came from, every time I was asked to do public speaking … And it just literally crept up on me one day. I’ve looked back whether there was a trigger. Typical me, was it antibiotics for acne that I took, or was it the pill, or was it just a rubbish boyfriend? I don’t know what it was. But one day, in class, reading out loud to the class, I had a panic attack where literally my heart just started racing, I struggled to breathe. And then I noticed my throat closing up and I couldn’t talk. And the awful thing about it was, throughout A-levels and university, there are lots of occasions you have to go and do public speaking or do some kind of presentation. And I honestly would start to fear it about three years in advance. When I got to university, the first thing I looked at was when am I gonna have to do a presentation. I’m gonna get nervous about it now. You almost get anxious or panicky about having a panic attack. ‘Cause it was something that was totally out of my control.
Keris: But a big route out of that for me was … And a number of … I’ve talked before about, just at university, starting to feel depression to the point of not wanting to get out of bed, not really feeling any kind of … Just kind of loneliness and homesickness, and I was in the wrong relationship, so little self-confidence, that I’d just put my trainers on and started running with my housemate. And the running side of it just started to transform my confidence. But it transformed my ability to cope with stuff more. So we say about how exercise helps with endorphins. It does, and confidence. But what it actually really, genuinely does, is just makes you more mentally robust. But not just exercise. ‘Cause, obviously, too much of that can go in the opposite direction and lead to more anxiety and other problems.
Keris: But the exercise led me to looking at nutrition. I changed my nutrition. And, from there, it’s been one thing after another. I’ve had to change how I perceive situations. I’ve had to change what I think is stressful, as in your ability to choose one thought over another is very powerful. And even things like supplements can be really helpful. And I’m not talking anything sexy here. CBD oil is the one everyone talks about when they think about mood health, isn’t it? At the moment, that’s the fashionable one. Magnesium could be beneficial for a lot of people. It has a calming, relaxing effect. I know how to add some supplements in if I’m going through a difficult time.
Keris: But the reason that we’re here doing a podcast, the reason I lecture, the reason we do public talks, is because, one, because I’ve conquered that fear, but because I did it through nutrition, exercise, and lifestyle. And I feel really passionate about people understanding that.
Matt: [crosstalk 00:36:59] ‘Cause that’s the amazing thing, isn’t it? Because if you go back to those times, those moments, when you could feel your throat and your chest tighten up and that fear and anxiety kicking in and you’re panicking …
Keris: Yeah, yeah. And people talk-
Matt: But what I was gonna say, I mean, if someone had said to you, “Carys, in years to come, you’re gonna be a lecturer at CNN. You’re gonna be travelling around the UK doing seminars in front of live audiences, doing lives on Facebook, et cetera, et cetera.”
Keris: Part of me never will love it. I’ll be very honest about that.
Matt: And here you are.
Keris: But part of me will never love all this stuff. I’ll never go, “Ooh! Going somewhere,” like naturally an extrovert. I’m not. I’m probably more introverted than anything. But part of me feels so passionate about letting people know this that I know I have to do it. It’s just part of what I’ve got to do. But I surprise myself in terms of my ability to do it. It’s still a shock to me sometimes. ‘Cause I think, like you said, I remember back to … It’s a very physical sensation, a panic attack. And you do get chest pains. You do feel like you can’t breathe. I can see why people get given a brown paper bag to try and breathe into. And that’s all about calming down the nervous system. And, even now, I know that four seconds in, four seconds out breathing is really powerful for me, should I feel myself getting wound up. I’ll sometimes just go and lie down, if we’re at home, and just put my hand on my belly, and basically do that really deep belly breathing. ‘Cause that will switch you into rest and digest mode, basically, calm down the nervous system. As can music, that’s another powerful thing that I use a lot, in terms of, I’ve got various different playlists to distract me or perk me up or help me to focus, concentrate, away from things that I’m worrying about.
Matt: But do you not think a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear, a lot of stress, a lot of worry, often stems from, I suppose, a buildup of things. And it’s normally a buildup of a thought process, I guess. And often, in times of fear and anxiety, we often focus on all the things that are going wrong or could go wrong. We focus on all the things that we can’t control, or we don’t have immediate control over. And we always try and say to people, “Look. You gotta focus on the can-dos, and not the can’t-dos.”
Matt: And people are so quick to jump to the negative side of things. And we’re like, “Well, actually, just step back for a moment, and be like, ‘Right. What can I do in this situation to get a better outcome, or to deal with this situation a little bit better?'” Do you know what I mean?
Keris: Yeah. I mean, that’s like if someone tells me that their job causes them huge amounts of anxiety, the first bit of advice I have is, “Right. Go and get your CV brushed up.” Because just a bit of proactive-ness alone is gonna make you feel like you’re in a bit more control. It’s gonna give you options. It’s gonna give you … It’s gonna change you. It’s gonna add an element of positivity to a situation that’s, at the moment, totally negative and there’s no way out. And there is nothing worse than feeling trapped like there’s no way out.
Keris: And that’s, I think, part of a lot of people’s anxiety issues, is when they can’t see an escape. So what they turn to is an escape in the form of, as we’ve said, alcohol, or food, or drugs, whatever it might be. Let’s just get into a haze and try not to think, try and numb ourselves to it. And sometimes, with that anxiety, ti’s also there because there’s a big thing that you’re not addressing. And that can be anything from a bereavement that you haven’t actually worked through and gone through the stages of grief, acceptance and those kind of things. There are different things. A lot of people try to almost busy themselves through bereavement. Stay busy, don’t think about it. That’s very common. I’ve seen that quite a lot.
Matt: Yeah, yeah. That’s like trying to distract you from …
Keris: Yeah, yeah. And then that tends to bite you in the backside. ‘Cause there’s only so busy you can get before you get exhausted. And same thing for … We talked about just being in the wrong relationship. That can be another thing, that you feel like there’s no escape. Maybe ’cause you’ve got kids, maybe … That in itself can create a low level of anxiety that’s going on all the time. I think it’s important. We’ve talked through a lot of things here. But just to pull it all together, I think doing a real audit or assessment of your, as you’ve said, your triggers and drivers, essentially. It might be key events that have led to this. It might be a health history. Learned behaviours as a kid that have led you to think this way. You might have picked it up from parents and become a worrier, become someone who always looks at glasses half empty, that kind of thing. And that can be … In that sense, it can be helpful to go and do something like talking therapies, or to follow more positive people on social media. We’re big fans-
Keris: … you follow more positive people on social media. We’re a big fan of Paul Watson, he’s on our podcast and he has a great saying. One that really stuck with me is, “You are not your thoughts,” because we start to believe our thoughts. We start to believe … we could talk negatively about ourselves, we can talk negatively about the future, we can think about worse case scenarios and we can start to believe it. Then you can forget that none of this is true and none of it may ever become true.
Matt: Well, unless you’re thinking good things.
Keris: Well that’s it.
Keris: So another really powerful thing is … this is on Eat Pray Love, which I watched the other day and I’ve been annoying Matt by going on and on and on about it.
Matt: Just keeps giving these quotes from this film right now.
Keris: Well he says, when she’s trying to meditate and think about things, he says that you should choose your thoughts like you choose your clothes.
Matt: Yeah, like you choose your clothes every day, choose your thoughts.
Keris: Yeah and I thought, “Oh, so that’s so powerful.”
Matt: Yeah. No, I like that because I do think … I’m not implying that I’m just a super positive person all the time, because I’m not. I have my moments, just like everybody does. But at the same time, I do feel like you do come across people that almost, when you’re talking to them, you almost feel like they don’t want an outlet because almost everything you try and say to them to try and help them, it’s like, “Er, yeah but … Er, yeah but …” Almost like … it’s hard sometimes to get through to those kind of people. Who knows what the catalyst for change can be, because it’s not that simple of just going, “Oh, just change your thought process.”
Keris: Yeah, change your thoughts.
Keris: Wear a red dress, think positive.
Matt: Job done.
Keris: What I was also going to say, in this podcast we have laboured how you think and your basic fundamental needs. The reason being, you might be listening thinking, “Well this is all very well, but tell me about the food. Tell me about the best supplements I can take for mood health. Tell me if I can … is there anything I can take that would give me a bit more confidence or whatever it might be?” The answer is no, if you don’t address everything that we’ve talked about first. We’re noticing this more and more as we go and do big group presentations, and you commented on it the other day and said, “Everybody always wants to know about the supplements. That’s where most of the questions seem to be.”
Matt: It’s so funny.
Keris: That’s where the paper and pen comes out. I believe in supplements, I really do, but supplements should support a foundation that you have built.
Matt: Well, it should supplement, you know?
Keris: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, a very basic foundation. What I’ve noticed is I could list about 20 supplements that can have an inhibitory effect on the brain, a calming effect and can help with serotonin production and what not. None of it works if you don’t address everything we’ve talked about beforehand.
Matt: Yeah, there’s no magic pill.
Keris: There’s no quick fixes.
Matt: There’s no quick fixes. We’re not in any way implying that any kind of change of this kind is easy or quick, because it’s not. Any kind of change is tough, and when it comes to, I suppose, changing your mindset and changing how you approach things, it’s not something that’s going to happen over night. You’re going to have to have a bit of a go at it and maybe change tack a little bit along the way.
Matt: I suppose in this episode, we just wanted to give you the courage, I guess, and to inspire you to be able to say, “Right, I can take control. There’s things I can’t control, but there’s things I can control. I feel inspired to implement change as soon as this podcast ends.”
Matt: Keris has spoken about her journey and how exercise played a role, how taking control of her nutrition has played a role. It’s not that necessarily exercise and nutrition are the only answer, because it’s not. There is a bigger picture there. In this case, I think it is an element of being able to add a bit of structure to your day, taking control over certain situations and like Keris mentioned, it’s feeling in control is a nice feeling. I’m sure anyone would agree.
Matt: Having an element of control over anything in like, nutrition, training, when you’re at work, when you’re on a family holiday and you’re trying to control three kids and partner, and an itinerary and whatever else. Feeling like you’ve done a bit of groundwork and you’re in control of the situation is a reassuring feeling. Not quite sure where I’m going with this, but I’ve said it.
Keris: Well what I was going to say, in terms of where would I go with the nutrition side to help with that, to give you … because it is quite important to emphasise that brain chemicals themselves are made of protein. They’re only made with the help of vitamins and minerals. So you have got to have good micronutrient status and you’ve got to make sure you’re meeting your essential fatty acid needs and your essential protein needs as well. Carbohydrates are also going to be important, so again, if you go low carb, many people comment on this, and feel their mood dives. There’s a chance you’ve affected serotonin production, so-
Matt: Well I’ve mentioned this before when I did nine weeks, didn’t I, low carb?
Keris: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Matt: I felt so low and depressed.
Keris: I think that just might be the absence of ice cream that also went with the low carbohydrate-
Matt: Potentially, potentially.
Keris: … intervention.
Matt: But [inaudible 00:47:38] though, my mood was … it just … and I had no reason to be.
Keris: In terms of what that looks like, guys, we’ve written this a million times now in terms of our second book, second helping, we talk you through getting your basic macro-nutrients in place. Fitter 16 is a little bit more interactive guidance if you want to do that. Protein is where we start with and we give people protein cheat sheets on how to do it.
Keris: I have to say, it’s the one area where I’m still going out and talking to groups of people that have followed us for years and saying, “What are your protein requirements?”, and everyone’s looking at me blankly. I’m like, “Seriously, hit that protein goal. Get protein in at breakfast because it is the foundation of your brain chemicals.” It’s what makes you feel motivated, makes you feel happy, content, stable and able to focus as well.
Keris: So it’s really important for kids, not that anyone’s talking about that when we’re looking at kids and concentration and attention deficit or attention spread disorder. So protein is absolutely essential. Omega-3s I’ve already mentioned, so oily, fatty fish an absolute given, and a fish oil if you want to top up or you don’t eat those foods.
Keris: Other things would be making sure you’ve got really good general micronutrient status. So that is the Fitter Food model, nutrient density. Some people might need a multi if they travel a lot and have to eat out a lot, don’t have much control over their food choices. There are things that can help in terms of balancing. There’s something called adaptogens, which are herbs, which we think actually act more on the immune system than they do …
Keris: One thing I should mention actually, bit of a geeky thing here, but there is something called the neuroendocrine immune system which is where we basically know that neurological function is affecting our hormonal function, which is affecting our immune system. Those three really have this interplay going on all the time. What it means is if you have an infection, you probably already know this, it’s going to affect your mood, it’s going to affect your mindset. You know if you’re ill. You don’t feel too hot, right?
Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.
Keris: So similarly, that’s probably going to affect your blood sugar regulation. Again, when you’re ill appetite gets affected. Sometimes you get a bit shaky, cravings, low blood sugar. You’ve had that before, right?
Keris: But what it also means is how you think could also change blood sugars and maybe affect immune system as well. So those three things are always interacting, so you’ve always got to be thinking about, it’s everything we’ve always talked about in terms of being outside more, looking after yourself more, getting enough sleep. Those things are really important.
Keris: There are some basic supplements that can help. So I’ve already mentioned magnesium has a calming effect on the body. Again, you can take it at night or take it across the day. Most people do benefit from magnesium generally because they feel pretty active in the gym, training a lot, you’re going to have a raised need for it anyway. Around 350 milligrammes is a nice, safe dose that you can do.
Keris: If you go for … it’s normally magnesium citrate that we recommend, but you can also get magnesium glycinate where it’s bound to glycine. Glycine is a really interesting amino acid in that … so it’s amino acid that’s a constituent of protein. Glycine has a kind of inhibitory effect on the brain, so it can help with gaba productions, and gaba makes you feel nice and calm. So if you want to have a calming effect from magnesium, you could go with magnesium glycinate, or another one is magnesium threonate, which crosses the blood-brain barrier and is though to, again, have a bit more of a calming affect. Personally, I just think any magnesium tends to offer a benefit, so go with what your budget allows you to.
Keris: Another couple of nutrients that can be helpful, I’ve just mentioned glycine. We actually take glycine on its own as an amino acid, because it’s also fundamental for collagen health. So think about your soft tissues, again, if you’re doing a lot of training. Also, it’s part of phase two liver detoxification, creatine production. We get glycine from things like the skin of animals and any kind of skin and the bones, and the organs. Because, if we’re travelling, you and I don’t tend to eat much of that, other than I’d say skin on tinned sardines and things, wouldn’t you say, and salmon?
Keris: We tend to not eat organ meats if we’re travelling, so we’ll take glycine around with us. I definitely feel like it helps in terms of sleep. If we’re working late, I’ll tend to take some glycine, some magnesium.
Keris: Another one is taurine, you may have heard of that from … where have you heard of taurine before?
Matt: Where have I heard of taurine?
Keris: Yeah. What’s it in? A famous drink that taurine is in?
Matt: Oh, Red Bull.
Keris: Yeah. But taurine basically is another amino acid that has a calming effect on the body. So again, if you work late or if you train after work, that can be really helpful in terms of bringing down [inaudible 00:52:17] that kind of thing.
Matt: People who are [inaudible 00:52:19] be asking now if it has a calming effect, why’s it in Red Bull?
Keris: Well, don’t quote me on this, but Charles Poliquin said it’s because the caffeine gives you the high and then the taurine brings you down again, so that you need what?
Matt: Another Red Bull?
Keris: Apparently. I don’t know.
Matt: You don’t think it’s maybe to balance it out a little bit?
Keris: I don’t know, I don’t know. [inaudible 00:52:43] never really looked it up. I don’t drink it, so.
Matt: Hm, I shall be on Google afterward.
Keris: It had no relevance to me because I think it’s foul stuff.
Keris: Finally, there’s also something called 5-HTP which is basically a serotonin precursor. So if you go to a GP you are going to be offered one option, which is an anti-depressant or an SSRI, which basically stops the uptake of serotonin, so keeps serotonin circulating for a little bit longer so you feel calmer. That can also help you sleep as well. What 5-HTP is, is more of the precursor nutrients. Again, what I would say is making sure you’ve got the protein, and the vitamins and minerals. Vitamin D is also vital. You need to be able to make those neurotransmitters in the first place.
Keris: So check you’ve got the ingredients before you moan that the dish isn’t perfect, you know what I mean? In terms of you need the ingredients to absolutely fulfil the recipe in the first place. It’s a very slight analogy there, but not-
Matt: Yeah, [inaudible 00:53:40].
Keris: So 5-HTP again can be taken at night with carbohydrates to help with tryptophan. If you are more of a … if the problem you think is more serotonin-based, you don’t feel content, you don’t feel happy, satisfied, those things are more about serotonin. Maybe poor serotonin production or maybe you convert it … If you’re very stressed, you might convert this thing called tryptophan steal where you’re going down all this stress pathway, and therefore again, not producing any serotonin and melatonin, because serotonin is converted into melatonin [inaudible 00:54:15].
Keris: So that can be another thing to consider, but I’d really advise you if you want to go and get a comprehensive plan done, go and work with a nutritional therapist rather than stacking all these in and going, “Oh, I don’t feel too good,” because you need the structure with it as well [crosstalk 00:54:30]-
Matt: Of course [crosstalk 00:54:30] we don’t want this to be a scenario where you just start [crosstalk 00:54:34] taking notes now of, “Oh, I need to go get X, Y and Z,” because it’s like Keris mentioned earlier, these aren’t miracle supplements by any means. They can play a role in helping, just like all things, but you need to identify the bigger picture, right?
Keris: Yeah, absolutely.
Matt: Whether that’s … because talking about the fear, the anxiety that I feel running a business isn’t because I don’t feel a sense of purpose in what I do. Because I very much feel a sense of purpose in what I do because I’m very grateful to be able to say that we help lots of people every single day through our books, through our podcast, through our programmes, et cetera, et cetera. But I suppose for me, the fear and anxiety comes from feeling like I’m not doing a very good job of it because I should be helping more people and the business should be more successful, and I should provide more security for you and I and Hamish and our little family and our future, and stuff like that.
Keris: That’s the problem. Taurine doesn’t deliver that, does it?
Keris: So you can take as many pills as you like.
Matt: I suppose as a bit of a closing message if you will, as not to waffle on, is you need to step back, and hopefully this podcast has inspired you to do so. Just grab yourself a cuppa, grab a pen and paper, old school, and write down a little list. Write down what does make you feel stressed, what fills you with fear and makes you feel anxious. Write down maybe where you notice that there’s a pattern with particular triggers maybe that send you off down a certain path that you’d prefer not to go down in terms of your head space and your thought process, and then your actions that you take after that. Because for a lot of people in moments of anxiety and fear and sadness, is to seek comfort from food.
Matt: People reach for sugary, hyper palatable, often calorie-dense and nutrient-lacking foods. As we say, always seems like a good idea at the time, offers you that very, very brief comfort blanket if you like, but soon enough that feeling goes. It’s often replaced by guilt, the realisation that the issue of why you felt that way in the first place is still there, you still got to face it. Whereas if you’ve got a bit of a list, and sometimes just something so simple as seeing it in black and white there in front of you on a bit of paper is quite powerful because you’re like, “I’ve identified these. I haven’t just gone, ‘Oh, I just feel really anxious. Everything’s just getting on top of me.'” What’s getting on top of you? Why do you feel anxious? If you’ve got a list there, you can see it, then you can start to think of a strategy of how you’re going to deal with those obstacles, those barriers, those thought processes, et cetera, et cetera.
Keris: You could also break it down into … there’s going to be some big stuff in there.
Matt: Of course.
Keris: It might be career, it might be relationships, it mights be where you live needs to change, maybe that stresses you out. Then there’s going to be some really small stuff that you could start now in terms of … One very quick example when we lived in London, after a while I realised where we lived, that environment didn’t support our health. We spend a lot of time driving to woods just around the corner, make sure we’re in the woods a lot, you know?
Matt: Yeah, yeah.
Keris: So kind of being in an environment we wanted to be. It was only round the corner. We made it happen, we prioritised it. So once, as Matt said, you’ve got that all on paper, start to think of little things that you can do. Staying offline a little bit more, reading your favourite books, getting inspiration from biographies, amazing films, that’s what we do a lot of. When we need to tune out from our own thoughts, we go and look at someone else’s life that was amazing and that inspires us.
Keris: I always think biographies are brilliant because there’s always a part of it where they had a struggle, they had a difficult time. They got through it and they succeeded. So it gives you that sense of belief back.
Keris: I also think just acknowledge when you’re distracting yourself by being busy, busy with fat loss, busy at the gym, busy …. whatever [crosstalk 00:59:06] it might be. Just acknowledge that you’re doing it and stop doing it, and start devoting time to sorting this situation out.
Matt: As the saying goes, change only happens when you do. Is that right?
Keris: I don’t know, it sounds [crosstalk 00:59:19].
Matt: Change only happens when you do. Yeah, I think that’s right.
Keris: I think it’s fine.
Matt: Basically what that means is for a change to occur, you need to make the change. Something I’ve been saying a lot lately is, “Don’t talk about it, be about it,” which isn’t my quote, but I’ll have it. I’ve been using it a lot lately. It’s true. You need to take action on these things and you need to remember that you are in control. You’re a good human. You deserve to be happy, you deserve to be healthy, and don’t put too much pressure on yourself. Don’t think that you constantly need to be giving more to be seen as a better person, because I’m sure that everyone thinks the absolute world of you. Your kids, your partner, your mom, dad, nieces, nephews, whatever.
Matt: We often talk about your environment, and it’s really important that when we talk about I suppose your circle, if you like, of immediate family and close friends, needs to be one that you feel … I don’t know, nourishes you, if you like. On the flip side, you need to make sure that you’re doing that for other people, for the circle that you’re a part of. You’re making people feel that way.
Matt: Just one last thing, I know I’ve probably said it about three times, just one last thing. Something that … did you mention Paul Watson earlier?
Matt: Thought you did. So Paul Watson, something that he said that really stood out to me was that you need to treat yourself like you would your best friend.
Keris: Your best friend, yeah.
Matt: Often something that we say to people when maybe they’ve posted in our Fitter 16 support group or our Fitter 365 members group, and they’ll list all these things that they’re worried about, things that they’re anxious about, and these questions of what to do, what to do. Sometimes rather than actually answer the question, I say, “Well, if your best friend had come to you with all these questions and all these points you’ve just made, what would you say to them to make them feel better? To feel as though this isn’t as big a deal as you’ve made it out to be, and you’re in control of this situation and you can come out the other side.” Then they’ll come back with an absolutely amazing response and it’s then it’s like, bang-
Keris: Yeah, it’ll just roll off the tongue, yeah.
Matt: … there’s your answer, that’s what you need to do. Not always that simple, but it’s a good place to start.
Matt: So I think we should say ta-ar-
Keris: Yeah. I’m done.
Matt: … don’t you?
Matt: Are you done?
Matt: I’m done.
Keris: I’m done.
Matt: Jobs [crosstalk 01:02:03].
Keris: I’m hungry.
Matt: I’m off.
Matt: Guys, thank you so much for listening. I really, really hope that you found value in there. I really enjoyed this podcast actually. Any questions at all, as always, please, please reach out. Best place to get us is probably [email protected], or you can try us on Fitter Food Facebook page or Instagram. We will see you over in episode 103.
Matt: See you.